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Waterfall
28th April 2009, 13:47
I am having a mare on ebay at the moment :( I was selling a mirror as collection only and was asked if I could post. I checked all the couriers and none would insure so I added added this to the listing and emailed the prespective buyer as well..

The mirror is packed in it's original box
For collection only to prevent breakages
I can deliver very locally please ask before bidding
Cash preferred but I will accept paypal
I have been asked to post this mirror and can only do so if the buyer accepts the following conditions
The mirror is packaged in two thickish cardboard boxes and contained in a polystyrene cover. If I post the mirror the courier will not accept damage liabilty. If you are happy to take the risk I can post to you for 8.99. I can't take responsibilty for any damage caused in transit though - sorry.

They are now asking for the money back and saying they are angry. I've spoken to the courier who dosent want to know. Ebay have said I am within my rights not to refund and any neg will be removed. I hate dealing with things like this - what would you do - I'm so ****ed off with ebay at the mo.. :(

SuzyWoo
28th April 2009, 13:48
I would fight it Waterfall, your listing is perfectly clear. You put conditions which she accepted so not your problem.

SUSIEQ
28th April 2009, 13:50
Hi W
Looks like you made it very clear in your listing. Buyer probably either didn't take any notice or maybe plain stupid? Don't be afraid to stick to your guns. You have Ebay backing by the looks, so stand firm.

edit - lol, suzy types faster than me!

jackie_k_uk
28th April 2009, 13:51
Certainly not your problem!!!
You couldnt have made it any clearer and she obviously accepted it.

obscure
28th April 2009, 13:52
What a run you are having on Ebay!

You have done all you can this time, stand firm - you clearly transferred responsibility to the buyer and therefore they have no come back.

Can sympathise with you for feeling bad for them, but you couldnt have been any clearer and they took the risk.

Good luck!!!

Waterfall
28th April 2009, 13:53
Thanks guys Ebay is a real rollercoaster isnt it :rolleyes:. I had a good run for ages but recently nought but problems. Think I will stay off for a bit and let things die down. Trouble is we need the dosh

Freebird
28th April 2009, 13:57
Although you have ebay's backing, it's not that simple unfortunately. If she paid by paypal, she'll get refunded if she files a SNAD. Firstly ask her to send you a photo of the damage - she could be trying it on knowing full well no courier will insure glass. After that it's a case of fighting her and hoping for the best. make sure you get the names of anyone you speak to at ebay/paypal and only correspond with your buyer in writing.

You ARE having a mare at the mo, aren't you? :hug:

angelic
28th April 2009, 14:04
Sorry you are having such a rotten time with Ebay, Waterfall :(

Freebird has posted the same as I would be saying -
Unfortunately you can put whatever terms and conditions you like in your listing, but none of it has any legal standing in a dispute.

I agree to ask for a photo of the damage first, although there is no way you can prove any damage was done in transit or by the buyer dropping the mirror herself :(

PayPal will side with the buyer if she files a SNAD dispute - sorry nothign you can do about that :(

Grace & Favour
28th April 2009, 14:10
Waterfall - - Stick to your guns

And - I happen to disagree with Freebird (!) As Ebay owns Paypal - I believe that Paypal will have to take into account Ebay's verdict!

Tuckerpoo
28th April 2009, 16:46
Stick to your guns Waterfall. You made it clear in the listing. I'm not sure who Paypal will side with, but I would just wait and see! ;)

Freebird
28th April 2009, 17:24
Waterfall - - Stick to your guns

And - I happen to disagree with Freebird (!) As Ebay owns Paypal - I believe that Paypal will have to take into account Ebay's verdict!

:D That's quite ok - lots of differing views can be very useful when you need help.

I guess I'm just majorly cynical due to the years I've been on there and the shocking decisions I've been at the receiving end of. Their stock reply in any dispute is that they "are only a venue" so I'm actually surprised WF got what she did from them. I hope they DO side with her, but suspect that when it comes to the crunch, they'll say it's down to paypal and they can't get involved because paypal are actually a separate company. :rolleyes:

Keep us informed, WF. Most people trying it on will quietly disappear at the photo request stage so fingers crossed.

Waterfall
28th April 2009, 17:49
Judging from her emails I dont think she will disappear and she does have very good feedback herself - just over 1000 sales and 100%. She said her husband is ver angry - who at I have no idea - me for selling - her for accepting the terms - or the courier for breaking :noidea: The mirror sold for 55. My DH is saying stick to ur guns. Will paypal freeze my account while they investigate?

The bouncing bugging finishes tonight so am going to stall any reply until it has finished as I dont want another neg :pout: to reduce the price. It really isnt fair but I cant play the victim. So the plan is to get the buggy sold and paid for then deal with the mirror. I am scared to read my messages now :twitch: Good job we have more of the NZ wine :lol:

SuzyWoo
28th April 2009, 17:53
I would reply (once your buggy is sold) and ask what her husband is angry about - her for not reading the T&C's that are quite clearly displayed?

Or you could say your husband is angry too - what a silly woman!

Waterfall
28th April 2009, 18:01
So much anger in the world isnt there? When you read other threads where truely awful things have happened puts everything into perspective. Going to take a back seat on ebay for a while though... :behindsofa:


Will let you know what happens re this one

angelic
28th April 2009, 20:41
Judging from her emails I dont think she will disappear and she does have very good feedback herself - just over 1000 sales and 100%. She said her husband is ver angry - who at I have no idea - me for selling - her for accepting the terms - or the courier for breaking :noidea: The mirror sold for 55. My DH is saying stick to ur guns. Will paypal freeze my account while they investigate?

The bouncing bugging finishes tonight so am going to stall any reply until it has finished as I dont want another neg :pout: to reduce the price. It really isnt fair but I cant play the victim. So the plan is to get the buggy sold and paid for then deal with the mirror. I am scared to read my messages now :twitch: Good job we have more of the NZ wine :lol:

Could be she is hoping by saying her hubby is very angry you will cave in and refund :confused:
If I had a 1 for every Ebay threat/sob story I have heard in the past 10 years or so, I would be rich!!

PayPal will freeze your account as soon as the buyer raises a dispute if she goes that far.
If this happens, you will have no access to accept funds from sales or remove funds to your bank.
Worth noting you would be in an awkward position if you still have auctions running at such a time....you have to accept PP to sell on Ebay, but wouldn't be able to while your account is frozen IYSWIM ;)

Good luck with your buggy auction and hope that one goes well for you :)

Freebird
28th April 2009, 20:52
Angelic - I may be wrong but don't they just freeze the amount in dispute? As long as it's still in the account, I guess.

Waterfall
28th April 2009, 21:02
This is all sooo messy. On a good note the Bouncing Quinny is almost up to its original price :) Really hope it goes above the BIN that the Queen B paid :pray2:. I have a payment pending and money in the account. When the Quinny finishes and is paid I taking the lot out :bolt:

angelic
28th April 2009, 21:03
Freebird - I'm not 100% sure (thankfully not had a dispute against me personally) but thought the whole account was frozen to prevent any movement in or out?
I hope someone might be able to tell us for sure?

If anyone has been unfortunate enough to be involved in a PP dispute as a seller, could they please let us know if it is the entire account or just the amount in question which is frozen?

angelic
28th April 2009, 21:07
This is all sooo messy. On a good note the Bouncing Quinny is almost up to its original price :) Really hope it goes above the BIN that the Queen B paid :pray2:. I have a payment pending and money in the account. When the Quinny finishes and is paid I taking the lot out :bolt:

Fingers crossed on the Quinny and hope Queen B is watching it....karma ;)

If you empty your account and the mirror buyer files a dispute, your PayPal account will go into a neg balance and you will be asked to put funds in to cover a refund if the buyer was to win.
For this reason, it might be better for you to leave the mirror transaction payment in your account just to make a it easier for you if a dispute happens and goes against you :)

Waterfall
28th April 2009, 21:10
Fingers crossed on the Quinny and hope Queen B is watching it....karma ;)

If you empty your account and the mirror buyer files a dispute, your PayPal account will go into a neg balance and you will be asked to put funds in to cover a refund if the buyer was to win.
For this reason, it might be better for you to leave the mirror transaction payment in your account just to make a it easier for you if a dispute happens and goes against you :) Thanks - good idea. Watching this Quinny price go up has become a bit of sport in our house :lol: No wine yet but I'm tempted before I reply to Mr Angry's wife. I am such a wuss.. :behindsofa:

Freebird
28th April 2009, 22:06
Angelic is correct of course ref paypal account going into negative. I've had a paypal dispute against me for non-receipt (the last ever time an item of mine went non-recorded and the last time an item wasn't received. Funny that.), but my account was never frozen. Maybe because I'm a business seller and they judge each case on the likelihood of the seller trying to "do a runner" or not.

Waterfall
28th April 2009, 22:07
Buggy sold for 11 over the original BIN :) I now have Mr Angry's wife wanting an answer

hi,have you contacted the courier yet? this has been totally mistreated as the frame is trashed aswell,they must of used some force,its disgusting to be honest and im a 100% unhappy,hopefully we can redeem this between us,ta,best place for this is the skip

Freebird
28th April 2009, 23:16
That sounds a tad dodgy to me. Say the cpouriers have requested pics and ask them to save mirror and packaging until you tell them what to do next. Under no circumstances are they to throw it away. It sounds to me like they're hoping to get it free or a lot cheaper. Stay calm, pleasant and polite and it'll be fine. However much you want to tell them where to go! LOL.

By the way, if they file a paypal dispute and have to return the mirror, it'll be at their own cost so wait before offering anything.

janedoe
28th April 2009, 23:33
Defo wait for pics for any claim and don't be pressured into making a refund, at the end of the day what is a neg - nothing if you have loads of good feedback it won't affect your total and leave a 'really nice' feedback for them, been there and done that and I have the t-shirt could lend it to you if you like, but it has put me off selling and haven't done any for months - verging on years.

99redballs
28th April 2009, 23:42
omg i can't believe ebay are actually on your side!! they usually do the wrong thing and never read anything properly. AND they're going to remove any neg? are you sure they're not pulling your leg?:D
stick with it waterfall.

angelic
29th April 2009, 09:35
The tone of the latest message makes me think it is rather more likely the buyer is trying to pull a fast one.
There is no mention of a dispute which I would have expected to be "threatened" .... could be I am just a tad too suspicious, wouldn't be the first time, but the warnign signs are there.

As both Jane and Freebird said, politely request photos and state they are required by the courier as is a photo of the packaging. Don't be fobbed off by an excuse why they can't send a photo either ;)

Absolutely don't refund until the buyer goes to dispute (if they do) and PayPal instruct you.
Have you checked through buyer's recent purchases and feedback left for others? Just wondering if there may be clues there IYSWIM ;)

Forgot to say well done on the Quinny sale....karma :) :)

Waterfall
29th April 2009, 09:41
Thanks for your replies. I have advised her the courier was not prepared to cover and she has replied


you will never win against the courier as their are many loops in their contracts,can you claim on their insurance? obviously we have to sort this between us,my hubby thinks that the frame was damaged anyway,but not that you knew,so on a friendly basis are you prepared to offer the refund? as i would most definatley in this case xx
There is nothing in her feedback that is dodgy TBH after the Bouncing Buggy I look more dodgy :eek: But why would he think I would ask for collection for something that is damaged?

She hasnt offered a photo... going to sit on this until tonight as the buggy is not paid for yet :twitch:

angelic
29th April 2009, 09:59
Her reply suggests she has maybe been involved with courier claims before?
It seems to me she is now switching tact to being more friendly than angry....don't be swayed without a photo and her taking it to dispute!

Sorry I have forgotten - if the Quinny original buyer hasn't left feedback, there would be no worry about you looking dodgy as you put it. If she did, it hasn't put off the second buyer ;)

BritBrat
29th April 2009, 10:00
Take the neg and keep the money.

Simples :)

You have nothing to lose as you are thinking of refunding anyway, so sit tight and see what happens.

Lesson here is if you state conditions keep to them yourself

Waterfall
29th April 2009, 10:02
Her reply suggests she has maybe been involved with courier claims before?
It seems to me she is now switching tact to being more friendly than angry....don't be swayed without a photo and her taking it to dispute!

Sorry I have forgotten - if the Quinny original buyer hasn't left feedback, there would be no worry about you looking dodgy as you put it. If she did, it hasn't put off the second buyer ;)

Quinny orignial buyer has left a neg :( I have contacted ebay and I have to send a form off to Dublin get it removed. She neg'ed me as I initially didnt refund her paypal fees although I refunded item and courier. I refunded this as the Quinny is obviously an expensive item and I wanted to get it back ASAP incase it became more 'damaged' :(

Waterfall
29th April 2009, 10:15
On further digging it seems this is another 'buyer' not seller. Nothing sold for over 90 days.

Freebird
29th April 2009, 12:05
The more I read her responses the more I think your mirror buyer is dodgy. She's hoping for a freebie! Ignore the buggy sale, I don't think it impacts on the mirror. Politely email her and say you are trying to claim via the courier's insurance and could she please send you a couple of pics of the mirror/frame damage asap as well as the packaging. Assure her that you'll do your best to make sure it's sorted out to her satisfaction as quickly as possible and apologise for any inconvenience. You may not mean it, but it reassures the buyer (if they're genuine) and looks good either way.

DaisyChain
29th April 2009, 12:08
I smell a rat too Waterfall

Just keep it polite formal and communication to a minimum until it gets clearer

Easy to say now, but never go against your better judgement on Ebay - if you don't think you should post something DON'T. Stick to your terms

SuzyWoo
29th April 2009, 12:51
I would ask for pics to give yourself some time!

angelic
29th April 2009, 18:39
Just to add - make sure all your communication with your mirror buyer goes via Ebay messages and keep a copy of all of it ;)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the mirror buyer is pulling a fast one or was hoping to ;)

Waterfall
29th April 2009, 18:52
I have just sent her a message suggesting pictures ect. While I was sending it our messages crossed and she said


hi,please take the time to reply about the refund thanks elaine

She only messaged me this morning.. I am getting really annoyed now... :mad:

SuzyWoo
29th April 2009, 19:29
Still ask for the photo's so you can assess the 'damage'.

Freebird
29th April 2009, 20:26
And maybe mention that you're at work all day so can't always get to reply very quickly! :)

Waterfall
29th April 2009, 22:32
And maybe mention that you're at work all day so can't always get to reply very quickly! :)

Done ;) TY and it's true :)

Waterfall
30th April 2009, 09:02
She's emailed the photos and - yes it is broken. Mirror and frame. No idea what these couriers do with stuff. :(

Off to work now so will deal with tonight. What do you think? I think she took the risk and the risk was it may arrive in tact or it may not. I am still not inclined to refund but I do feel sorry for her.

holliemon
30th April 2009, 09:05
She could also have broken it herself when you asked for photos

Grace & Favour
30th April 2009, 09:08
I happen to think the risk is hers WFall . .

She deliberately asked you to post (not collect herself)
You explained the risk - and that the risk would be hers
Unfortunately - it broke.

You didn't break it, (either she*, or the courier did)

I'm sorry for her too - but - - it was completely her decision

Her bag

Her bill


Not your problem!

End of

angelic
30th April 2009, 09:22
Sorry to disagree, unfortunately if the buyer goes for a PayPal SNAD dispute, she would win as she won a perfect mirror and has received a broken one.

As the buyer has now showed proof the mirror is broken by sending photos, it might be easiest to refund her and move on rather than make her wait for PayPal to come to the decision.

As I mentioned in a previous post, what anyone puts in their listings about "no responsibility taken...." counts for absolutely nothing when it comes to a PayPal dispute.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but couriers, RM etc don't handle packages with the care we would hope and it is a risk we take sending anything fragile :(

SuzyWoo
30th April 2009, 09:30
Maybe offer to go halves with her, explain your listing was very clear, but you do have some sympathy for her predicament?

Grace & Favour
30th April 2009, 09:31
Then, Angelic, what you're saying means that even if the buyer insists that we courier the item that the seller must not!

I guess the only option would be to tell the buyer to arrange her own collection by her own courier - - and then the argument would be between her & her courier . .

Or would PayPal still find for her if the item was damaged?

Freebird
30th April 2009, 09:40
I'm afraid Angelic is spot on, G&F. Conditions like that don't count if paying by paypal. And yes, even if she'd arranged her own courier, paypal will still find for her. Unfair, but them's the rules with them.

In a situation like this, you always need to ask the buyer to pay by bank transfer or cheque to hammer home that it's their risk. If they won't, then you don't post.

WF - I'm afraid it might be best that you refund with an apology, which will probably get you a positive. If that doesn't worry you anymore, you could fight it, but paypal will rule against you. I suspect the buyer knew that accepting your risk conditions meant nothing, hence she was happy to as she would win either way.

I know that sounds really harsh, and it's not meant to be critical of you in the slightest, WF, it's just the cold, hard, unfair facts of dealing with paypal as a seller. It is VERY tough now and an absolute minefield. Unscupulous buyers know this and deliberately play the system. I might be that she got the mirror intact but didn't like it and so broke it deliberately to avoid having to pay for a return. We'll never know. I've been there and the easiest way to deal with it is just refund and move on. :hug:

Grace & Favour
30th April 2009, 09:43
I wonder why seller peeps are unenamoured with PayPal?

Freebird
30th April 2009, 09:50
As a business seller I find paypal simple, quick and convenient - and surprisingly cheaper than bank credit card systems like PROTX. BUT.....in the event of a problem, it's a nightmare. Despite all their raving about safety and protection, when it comes down to it, you have none at all. The buyer wins, every time. It doesn't matter how blatantly dodgy. My worst was a buyer who emailed thanks for the lovely item, then claimed non receipt for 27 items, got 27 negs and paypal paid out on every one. I've not sent anything unregistered since, but that's how it goes.

tyroleandancer
30th April 2009, 11:25
I would have to agree with Suzy
meet half way :(

I sold 20 Next vouchers and din't send them recorded, buyer said he didn't have them and opened a dispute. I had to refund and was therefore left 40out of pocket :(

BritBrat
30th April 2009, 12:23
Take any money you have in paypal out and then they cant pay her back.

But now she has left a neg it may be frozen.

Offer 50% as I think you were both in the wrong as you knew it may get broken and that is why you had the T&C if she wont take that then sit tight and see what happens as you have nothing to lose.

Freebird
30th April 2009, 12:35
Take any money you have in paypal out and then they cant pay her back.

But now she has left a neg it may be frozen.

Offer 50% as I think you were both in the wrong as you knew it may get broken and that is why you had the T&C if she wont take that then sit tight and see what happens as you have nothing to lose.

It doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Paypal will put your account into negative and if you don't pay it back within a short deadline, they WILL send the bailiffs after you. Just not worth it.

I'd agree that it might be worth offering 50%....you do, indeed, have nothing to lose!

angelic
30th April 2009, 13:31
Just to add to Freebird's excellent posts and to repeat what I said in an earlier post....

Any terms and conditions you put in your auction listing have absolutely no bearing if a buyer goes to dispute - something worth thinking about and remembering.

Basically, the seller is responsible for getting the item to the buyer by mail/courier or whatever means in the same condition as listed - if an item is lost/damaged in transit, the seller will lose out 9 times out of 10.

Any seller who thinks their responsibility ends once the parcel is in the hands of Royal Mail/courier or whoever would be best advised to read up the Ebay/PayPal User agreements they signed up to when they joined Ebay/Paypal.

Waterfall, this isn't aimed at you personally so please don't think it is....

I am just posting the info as a general warning so that anyone unaware, will know how to cover themselves against any potential problem.

SuzyWoo
30th April 2009, 13:44
I understand exactly what you are saying FB and Angelic. I think we all know about the unfairness of Paypal. I just hope the buyer has a sense of fairplay, based on Waterfalls listing. Paypal stinks!

I always state on collection only purchases that cash is required on collection, although I thin I'm breaking some ebay rule by stating that as you have to accept paypal - but there is no way of proving a buyer has actually collected the item if they've paid by paypal! Aaargh!

angelic
30th April 2009, 14:07
I understand exactly what you are saying FB and Angelic. I think we all know about the unfairness of Paypal. I just hope the buyer has a sense of fairplay, based on Waterfalls listing. Paypal stinks!

I always state on collection only purchases that cash is required on collection, although I thin I'm breaking some ebay rule by stating that as you have to accept paypal - but there is no way of proving a buyer has actually collected the item if they've paid by paypal! Aaargh!

I feel very sorry for Waterfall, it isn't a nice situation to be in....I agree PayPal often doesn't give the seller much chance to state their side :(

Looking at the transaction from the buyer's point of view -

They bought and paid for a mirror which has unfortunately got broken at some point before they received it (assuming their side of the story of the damage) so now they have a useless mirror and are naturally wanting a refund.
I personally would be same if I was the buyer as I wouldn't want to be out of pocket for an item I expected to arrive in perfect condition and would be requesting a full refund.

Yes Suzy, you are right it isn't permitted to put cash on collection in your listing ;) You do have to offer PayPal as an option, but as you rightly say, no way would you accept PP for a collection item - another daft PayPal rule :rolleyes:

Waterfall
30th April 2009, 19:25
I have offered a 50% refund. Watch this space and :pray:

DaisyChain
30th April 2009, 19:26
Good luck Waterfall - I think she knows what she's doing though

uklego
30th April 2009, 19:34
I am on my knees right now as I type ;)

Waterfall
30th April 2009, 20:21
She has accepted but asked for 50% of postage too. I have refunded her. Matter ended - I hope :twitch:

angelic
30th April 2009, 20:41
Glad you have come to an agreement Waterfall :)

Freebird
1st May 2009, 01:10
Same here....in view of the fact you can never beat paypal, I think you've done well to get her to agree to 50%. Well done! It makes me think she was probably genuine and doesn't know the system at all as anyone who did would have gone via paypal for the full amount.

Glad you got a good outcome! :)

SuzyWoo
1st May 2009, 07:17
Waterfall, I think it's the best option for you, better than what could have been certainly. Here's wishing you some happier ebaying in the future!